Transforming Trauma with Buddhist Psychology with Venerable De Hong

In this episode, Venerable De Hong speaks with Prison Mindfulness Institute's Executive Director, Vita Pires, on his work with the Engaged Buddhist Alliance, providing programs in facilities and through correspondence courses.

• How Buddhist Psychology supports Insight Development & Trauma Healing

• Working with those serving life (or LWOP) sentences

• Developing correspondence curriculums

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Venerable De Hong has taught Buddhist Psychology and Mindfulness Meditation in several state prisons in Southern California since 2013. He has also corresponded with incarcerated individuals in other California state prisons and states, offering correspondence courses on Buddhist teachings and meditation. He has been ordained in the Chinese and Vietnamese Traditions since 2006 and the Theravada Tradition since 2014. He has taught Buddhist psychology and counseling at the University of the West since 2016 and retired this year to focus on his practice and prison ministry.

Podcast Transcript

Vita Pires: 

Welcome to the Prison Mindfulness Summit. I'm happy to be here with the Venerable De. De Hong has been a co-founder of the Engaged Buddhist Alliance since 2013. He has volunteered in several California State Prisons teaching Buddhist Psychology and Mindfulness Meditation, as well as conducting daylong meditation retreats. 

He has corresponded with incarcerated individuals out of the state, offering a correspondence course on Buddhism and meditation. He was ordained as a Bhikkhu in the Chan Zen tradition in 2006 and in the Theravada tradition under Sayadaw U Khippa Panno in 2014. He has an MA and Ph.D. in Buddhist studies from the University of the West in 2010 and 14, respectively. The topic of his dissertation is the development of Buddhist repentance in early medieval China. 

Wow. Welcome! Welcome. 

Ven. De Hong, Ph.D.: 

Thanks. 

Vita Pires: 

So you've been doing this work? Tell us about your work in prisons, how long you've been doing it, and what you do in the classes. 

Ven. De Hong, Ph.D.: 

Sure. Yes, thank you. Thanks for having me. I have been doing this since June 2013. So it has been nine years. And at first, I started with one prison, which is Chuckawalla Valley State Prison which is 20 miles from Arizona. 

At first, the idea that we had was just that we were going to teach Buddhism. But the problem is with Buddhism, you can't just teach. The students have to have some level of education. As we all know, the incarcerated population, for the most part, most of them a reading comprehension level is only sixth grade. And so we end up scrapping that idea, which is usually in each visit. I will just give a short talk on a topic, let's say what is feeling? Or what is emotion? How do you express that? 

I usually would give them handouts just because I, at the time, only had time to talk for probably 15 minutes or less, and then we would meditate for around half an hour at least. And then, the rest of the time, about another half hour, I would let the men or the women share their practice, or we would have Q&A. And then, that's what happened. And we ended up going from one prison to six or seven at one point. And now, I'm at five. 

Vita Pires: 

Wow. So do you go weekly to them as well? 

Ven. De Hong, Ph.D.: 

Yes. Right now, every Monday, I go to the men's prison, which is in Chino, in the morning from 11 to 12:30. And then I would just drive over to the women's prison, which is right, like five miles away. I have two groups at Chinos Women's Prison. The 1 pm to three is for senior citizens over 65. 

And then, I will drive to Starbucks to take a break and then come back at 5:30 to 7:30 for the evening group, which is, you know, most under 65. Every Tuesday, I go to Lancaster State Prison, which is about 80 miles each way. On the weekend, that's when I drive to Chuckawalla, drive to Blythe, that's where I visit Chuckawalla, and onward. 

Vita Pires: 

Wow, I hope they don't lock down when you drive all the way over there. But I know it happens. 

Ven. De Hong, Ph.D.: 

It happens. It happens more than you know. Usually, luckily with Blythe, I coordinate. Now, with COVID, they may close for one or two years, but I still am able to go to the other two years that are open. 

Vita Pires: 

Do you notice any differences between the men and women incarcerated people and what they want to focus on or what they're able to focus on? 

Ven. De Hong, Ph.D.: 

I think in terms of stress, it's basically pretty similar. The stress from within was basically their childhood traumas or their traumas when they were in a marriage, especially for women. The stress from within prison, even on a daily basis, can be traumatic. What helps them is to be able to sit through and be present with what's going on in their mind. And yeah, and that can help them to deal with or overcome those. 

Last year, the number of participants was less, so I was able to meditate with them for an hour in each session. Yeah. We usually have two hours for each visit. Yeah. So even with the senior citizens, you know, we sat on those lousy chairs, either plastic or aluminum, they were hard. But even with the ladies, the ones over 65, we meditate for an hour. 

With them, I break it down to two sessions, you know, 30 minutes, and then we will take a break for them to rest. And then, we meditate for another half hour. With the men and the women, anyone under 65, we sit for an hour. 

Vita Pires: 

In what you said to us in an email, you said that you wanted to talk about the traumas of the incarcerated. How does being trauma-informed inform your teaching to people? 

Ven. De Hong, Ph.D.: 

Okay. I was born and raised in Vietnam. I was physically and emotionally abused by my parents, and my dad was the worst. My mom did a little bit, but my dad was the worst. It isn't the first time. Now, it is what we call psychology dissociation. Right? Because you need to survive. So when I started the prison in 2013, and from the stories that a lot of them, you know, told me in private or in a group, I was able to relate to their traumas. 

And so, what I am doing is that in some of the topics, you know, even it doesn't have to be Buddhism, right? We are dealing with human psychology. We are dealing with stress and suffering and traumas. I would say, "Hey, let's focus on your thoughts. Just be present with your thoughts or your feelings because your thoughts are not who you are. Your feelings are not who you are." 

Basically, we do mindfulness meditation. I would guide them through the whole session usually. Usually, for the last five or 10 minutes, we would sit in silence so that they could develop a habit. And also, in order for them not to be re-traumatized, I would remind them to say, "Hey, if you feel overwhelmed or if you feel numb, then you need to stop." It does work for the most part, and they're able to see what happened to them, which is basically the root cause of their crimes. 

Vita Pires: 

So, those insights arise in their minds as they sit and settle in their minds a little bit? 

Ven. De Hong, Ph.D.: 

Correct. Yes. Yes, the insight into why they felt angry, why they still feel angry all the time, or why they feel depressed or sad or helpless. Meditation and understanding some of the Buddha's teachings do help them to have insight into the root causes of their traumas. 

Vita Pires: 

You said you teach mindfulness. Do you teach something as intricate, maybe as the four foundations? Mindfulness of the body, mindfulness of mind, things like that? 

Ven. De Hong, Ph.D.: 

Yes, I do. Usually, we do the mindfulness of the body because that's easy to identify for almost everyone, right? Like, come back to the breath and just follow the in-breath and out-breath. I explain that you know, if you feel angry, then your breath is different. When you feel sad, your breath is different. That's one of the steps in the mindfulness of the body, or they can notice the sensations in their body. 

We do the body scan each time so that they can be mindful of any issues. Especially in a stressful environment, or sometimes there could be riots or when they get yelled at when they get angry. Before they react, I will usually tell them to come back to the class and notice the sensations and the physiological symptoms arising in their body, which is basically how they can express their emotions, which gives them the time to respond or react. 

Vita Pires: 

Great. So do you teach Brahma Vihara? 

Ven. De Hong, Ph.D.: 

Yes. 

Vita Pires: 

And so, how does that go over? 

Ven. De Hong, Ph.D.: 

Oh, yes. Well, you know, sometimes you go to tell them about the Brahma Vihara, which is a Buddhist technical term, right? I mean, in English, we call it the four abodes or the four wholesome qualities of the mind. We have a course on that. And usually, you can't just teach people to be compassionate or to love themselves. I usually explain it to them ahead of time, like loving-kindness is, which is basically one's ability to wish for wealth and happiness. And from that, understand that when you're not meditating, then know what it means to be healthy, what it means to be happy. 

We would sit for about 15-20 minutes when after the body scan, and after the mind is somewhat settled, then I was squeezing, and depending on that day, I would include the loving-kindness practice or the compassion or appreciative joy and equanimity. This helps them to understand what they can do to be happy in a way, you know, granted that the prison environment is not a place to be happy, but at least for them to get to the point where they are able to overcome all the hurdles and to be able to find joy from within or a sense of peace and calmness, and especially with equanimity because, as you know, with the pandemic, right, we can control anything in life anyway. So with equanimity, they're able to let go of what they cannot control, and they can focus on what is important to them. 

Vita Pires: 

What do you find most challenging to work with there? I guess, is it getting in and out of prison? How are the relations with the staff? 

Ven. De Hong, Ph.D.: 

Okay. For the most part, the staff, the admin staff, and the COs are cooperating. The paperwork takes a month to do, right? And then the food for TV tasks. And now, with a COVID vaccine, which is for us volunteers, it is required. Yeah. So with that out of the way, even sometimes, when I get inside, there aren't a whole lot of difficulties that I face. I mean, the only thing is, let's say that one day they are 

short-staffed, and with the pandemic, as we all know, the economy's like a lot of people quitting their jobs. So currently, a lot of prisons are short-staffed. 

When they are short-staffed, I go in. "Okay. Well, you can't visit. You can't go to chapel today." So, we just went home. But luckily, with the prison at Lancaster, I am able to go into the buildings, into where the guys are living, and just hang out with them in what we call the day room or the living room. Yeah. But in terms of challenges, especially with the women, it's not hard for me, but it's hard for them to be able to face their trauma. That's the thing that I feel sad about in a way, but there isn't a lot that I could do, but most of them are willing to come and sit with their body, with their mind. They make an effort. 

One more thing. At the women's prison, just so you know, if you want to get into my group, you have to be on the waiting list, and usually, they have to wait for at least six months. Oh, wow. Yeah. And they go every Monday. 

Vita Pires: 

Yeah. Okay. So you have quite a few people on the waiting list. 

Ven. De Hong, Ph.D.: 

Yes. A lot. 

Vita Pires: 

Do you go in as a Buddhist under the religious services department or something? 

Ven. De Hong, Ph.D.: 

We stay in the chapel, but usually, they call our group self-help or self-awareness. I just want to emphasize that there's nothing religious about the way that I conducted my visit. I don't have the Buddha. I don't have any incense, no oil, no candles, no bowing, no chanting. 

Vita Pires: 

Do you wear robes? 

Ven. De Hong, Ph.D.: 

This is what I have. Yeah. Usually, I also have the yellow shirt on, but inside the prison, it's better to wear this because most people can easily identify me as a monk. Yeah, the only thing that I have is I usually use the sound and strike it. This is what I do. This is the only thing that I have. This is not even Buddhists, right? 

Vita Pires: 

Yes. So, your classes sound like they're all voluntary, like people want to come into your class. They haven't been kind of voluntold to go to your class or come in for entertainment or something. Just get out of the, you know, the cell. 

Ven. De Hong, Ph.D.:

No. My visit is actually they all volunteer, and no one is forced. I never asked anyone to convert. That's not my style. That's not what Buddhism is about. The other thing is just because of the way that I conduct the class, we qualify for what they call rehabilitation credits, which means that if they come to my group for 54 hours, they will be able to have ten days off their sentence. 

Vita Pires: 

Oh, yeah, that's a good time, then. Yeah. Yeah, most of our classes are like that too. 

Ven. De Hong, Ph.D.: 

Correct. And Lancaster, because of the number of people in the other religions, so the guys were told they could only choose one religion. I have 15 guys on a regular basis. They are not Buddhist, only one. Yeah, only one. But they chose Buddhism. They chose to come every Tuesday. So yeah. 

Vita Pires: 

Wow. And so, you do correspondence as well? 

Ven. De Hong, Ph.D.: 

Yes. I mean, this will develop at the beginning. But in the beginning, we had this huge book that cost tons of money. But because of the level of education, we trimmed it down. In each course, we just focus on one topic, such as the Four Noble Truths, the Brahma Vihara, or the Five Aggregates, right? The other one is karma. And so, I would send this to them. 

Vita Pires: 

Do you send them the materials, and then they send you back something that shows the writing? 

Ven. De Hong, Ph.D.: 

Yeah. Each course requires four essays. And once they finish the essays and send them to me, I will send them the Chrono and a certificate. 

Vita Pires: 

So, you don't write back and forth and talk to them about their understanding or anything. Do you do that? 

Ven. De Hong, Ph.D.: 

It depends. If they have a question about their practice, we have a course on mindfulness meditation. If they do, then I would address their questions or explain it to them, or if their thinking is off, or the practice is not in the way it is supposed to be, then I would explain it to them. 

Vita Pires: 

You mentioned the five aggregates. That's curious to me. So, how does that land? That's sort of a hard topic, usually for people on the outside to get that are not Buddhist. 

Ven. De Hong, Ph.D.: 

Correct. Well, yeah. Well, you know, the five aggregates are the English term, right? The five condors or the five standards, but it has to do with the body and our feelings, our footstep perception, our volition, and our consciousness. The essay is formatted in ways that say, "Hey, how are you able to recognize your behavior which has that evolution, and that is arising out of their perception or their feeling? And so, this is how we phrase the essay just so that they can better understand what's going on with their mind, with their behavior. 

Vita Pires: 

So, you don't go into the nutshell part of it, that clinging to oneself. 

Ven. De Hong, Ph.D.: 

Yeah, we do. Actually, that's the three marks of existence. Actually, yeah, that is part of one course. Yeah, we do, but it's hard to do it in correspondence, right? So yeah, we do have the essays and also develop the lectures for them to say, "Hey, how can you not cling to this body?" But, like, we shouldn't identify or think that this body will last forever. So, that is one way that I explained it to them and provided lectures and notes for them. 

Vita Pires: 

So, you send them audio lectures? Do you have materials on a tablet yet? 

Ven. De Hong, Ph.D.: 

No. No, I just send them books and printed papers. 

Vita Pires: 

Okay, great. Great. Yeah, so that's a big endeavor. We had a correspondence course for years. It's a big endeavor. It's kind of something that people never do anymore, but people in the world of prisons are still doing this in volumes, you know, but nobody else ever writes letters to anyone that I know of. Yeah, we get hundreds and hundreds of letters a week here for people wanting books. So, engaged with Mr. Lyons. What is that about? 

Ven. De Hong, Ph.D.: 

Oh, well, you know, that's the name that we came up with when we started going into prisons, and it is a nonprofit. We were approved for taxes back in 2014. I think in the summer. We have a board of directors, and I'm one of the members. And actually, it has been difficult recruiting volunteers. It is hard. It has been years now. Before the pandemic, we had three or four. But since the pandemic, everyone has been kind of busy. Yeah, since last year, I've been the only one that visits five prisons. 

Vita Pires: 

What could you say about what inspires you? Let's do a pitch here first for you to get some volunteers. What inspired you personally? What do you learn about yourself going in and teaching people in prisons? What inspires you about the people there? 

Ven. De Hong, Ph.D.: 

Okay. So, here's the thing, right? I came to Cleveland in November of 1982. I didn't speak ABC. I only had $10. So what happened was, you know, I spent a year and a half in high school. I went to college and university. I have a Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering. I had a job, and then I got my Master's in electrical engineering, and then I got an MBA. All of those were free, except the MBA, for which I paid $21,000 cash for it, which was useless. 

Anyway, after I became a monk in 2006, I pursued an MA and Ph.D. in Buddhist studies. Now my point is visiting the prison, and actually before that, I thought about giving back. And just because I have received so much from America. So when my professor said, "Hey, let's teach Buddhism inside the prison." After two meetings, I was one of the three people who signed up for it. 

And when my colleague, Margaret, says, "Hey, Ven. De, do you want to go?" I'm like, "Okay." So yeah, but what inspired me to go is one to pay back. The men and women that came to my visit are so sincere. I'm not really like, in a way, you know, being mindful of the victim, but they suffer from childhood trauma, from physical, emotional, or sexual abuse or rape, or gang affiliation. They didn't have much help. 

I was able to relate to them and was able to speak at a level in terms of traumas. I was well received, in a way, my message, so they were able to continue to come over the years. That's how I'm able to continue. The issue is that I have not been paid, but we did receive a one-year grant at Koechlin State Prison and a three-year grant at Lancaster at Pleasant Valley. 

Other than that, I have not been paid. Much of what I do is pay out of my own expenses. Except for the past three or four years, I do receive a donation on a regular basis from a couple of my friends. So for folks out there, understand that nobody just wakes up one day and decides, "Oh, I'm going to decide to kill somebody or rob a bank." No, it happened over time. There are reasons and causes that lead these people to do what they did, but they deserve our help. They deserve our empathy and compassion. 

Vita Pires: 

Yes, indeed. So, what advice would you give to people who are maybe interested but they maybe have some fears? Like, why would I want to do that? Why would you? 

Ven. De Hong, Ph.D.: 

Well, here's one thing that they can do. They can explore. I mean, actually, according to the stats by CDC, 64% of people suffer from some form of ACE (Adverse Childhood Experiences). So, that's one thing. And the people inside are more than 90%. 

Now, what they can do is start to look inside themselves. What have they suffered from? Are they content? Are they happy where they are? That's usually what triggers or will lead them to think a little bit more about themselves. And also, read about traumas, read about mindfulness meditation, or some of the psychology topics that can actually help them and also help the folks inside the prison. 

If I may say, almost everyone is genuine inside the prison because they want to change. They want to go home. And so, I would say, give it a try because these people are worth helping. And ultimately, in California, the cost of incarcerating someone is over $100,000 a year. So we can save. Not only that we can save lives, but we can save so much money that we pay. 

Vita Pires: 

Yeah. Yeah. That's really kind of astounding how much money that, you know, putting someone in rehab would be about half that price. 

Ven. De Hong, Ph.D.: 

Yeah, I'll go to college, go to Stanford, right? 

Vita Pires: 

College, yeah. It would be a lot less, a lot cheaper than that. Yeah. Do you feel that people in your classes develop that sort of path quality that Buddhism has to offer? Even if they're not calling themselves Buddhists, doing these practices would be a path, you know, which I think is helpful, rather than just like, "Oh, here's some breath work." There's like a whole path that you can integrate into your home view. 

Ven. De Hong, Ph.D.: 

Correct. I mean, I explain to them, you know, look at your spirituality, right, because the phrase that a lot of folks out here use now is like, "Oh, I'm spiritual, but not religious." I explain to them, you know, you don't have to be a Buddhist, just as the Dalai Lama said, you know. But it can make you a better Christian, a better Jewish person. 

So usually, I would explain to them that this is what they can do. You can keep your religion, say your prayers, whatever. But you can incorporate mindfulness meditation. That concept is basically part of it is also contemplation, to look into the root causes of your suffering or even desire. 

One thing that people should know that you probably know is people who come to my group, most of them are lifers who are serving two life sentences. And actually, I have a lot of LWP, which is, you know, life without parole. It's hard for them, even it's hard for me, to tell them to say stay positive because one day they might be pardoned and leave the prison, but that's like when they get to their 50s or 60s. 

The teachings of the Buddha can help them to see through their suffering, how to deal with it, how to manage it, and overcome it and just continue to focus on the self-help class or even education. I 

have at least one person who is serving on our website and just graduated with a Bachelor of Science in Communication from Cal State LA. 

So, yeah, it's hard. But if they can include some of these practices, it can help them to deal with it. And actually, I've also worked with a lot of folks who are out of prison. But most of them still include the practice so that they can keep their life in order. So that they have and I told them about quality of life. 

Vita Pires: 

Yes, definitely improve the quality of life. Do you do any training of people inside to lead meditations? Or do you teach them any kind of facilitation? 

Ven. De Hong, Ph.D.: 

I wouldn't mind, but I told you I couldn't find anyone. Send me somebody. Right? And that's the hardest thing. I mean, we don't do formal fundraising just because I don't spend that money. I only use it when I stay at the hotel. But I pay for my own gas, my time. But it's hard to find somebody, to find people, and the fact that we don't have an office, a location. We use the address at the university, and that's it. We use that PO Box. But we don't have another location, which makes it even harder for people to come and visit. 

Vita Pires: 

Well, it sounds like you personally are doing amazing work. And so generous in giving back this way and driving every week and being very, I'm certain, is very helpful in impacting people's lives to make them so much happier or able to cope at least a little better. I applaud what you're doing. How can people get in touch with you if they want to volunteer with your project, donate, or whatever? 

Ven. De Hong, Ph.D.: 

We have a website, which is EngagedBuddhistAlliance.org. They can check out our website and see what we do. I do have a couple of videos that I also share my insight in, and if they feel generous, they can donate, or if they would like to volunteer, they can send an email or call the number on it. I'm more than happy to receive and talk to them. 

Vita Pires: 

Okay, great. It was really nice talking to you. I'm really glad to meet you and glad to hear about your beautiful program and the wonderful work you're doing. 

Ven. De Hong, Ph.D.: 

Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Appreciate that. 

Vita Pires: 

Thank you so much.